Author Topic: Counting combos  (Read 11548 times)

jiivee

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Counting combos
« on: November 23, 2013, 02:24:50 PM »
Hi

I downloaded trial version of PokerRanger a few days ago. The software is really cool in many ways but there's something I would do differently.

I'm not sure if there's something I don't get but I think there's something wrong in the way it displays combos.

My example hand and distribution are shown in attachment1. PokerRanger says it shows draws excluding made hands. However, if for example I check pop up for OESD (see attachment2) it includes pocket pairs QQ and 88. I understand pairs that use the board are excluded and pocket pairs are included and formers are made on the flop whereas pocket pairs are made preflop, but anyway this results to quite counterintuitive information.

It get's even more distracting because comboraws section uses different logic and there all made hands are included. Naturally this has to be this way because it would be absurd to show pair + OESD excluding made pairs. However understanding results as a whole is hard.

Let's assume villain opens and and board hits like presented in my attachment. I believe if I raise, villain will continue with these hand:

straight
trips
twopair
overpair
top pair + some draw
flushdraw
OESD
pair + gutshot
pair + flushdraw
pair + OESD
pair + gutshot
flushdraw + overcards
gutshot + overcards

Allright, now I need to know, what portion of his hands he will fold and what portion continue with. But how?

Check attachment 3. My example distribution has total of 155 combos and they are all included in made hands section. How do I know, which percentage of hands villain will fold and which he continues with? I don't know to which category 239 draw combos fall to, or portion of 32 highcard combination has a draw to go with and what doesn't. Same applies to top pairs hands and so on.

I think I should have a table of all possible combinations like this: (numbers aren't totally correct but you'll get the basic idea)

Code: [Select]
combos %
straight + flushdraw 1 0,65%
straight + 2 crd backdoor flushdraw 2 1,29%
(bare) straight 14 9,03%

two pair + 2 crd bd-fd 1 0,65%
two pair 4 2,58%

overpair + OESD 6 3,87%
overpair + gutshot 6 3,87%
(bare) overpair 6 3,87%

top pair + OESD 3 1,94%
top pair + gutshot 3 1,94%
top pair + 2 crd bd-fd 3 1,94%
(bare) top pair 9 5,81%

middle pair + OESD 3 1,94%
middle pair + gutshot 3 1,94%
middle pair + 2 crd bd-fd 3 1,94%

weak pair + flushdraw 2 1,29%
weak pair + OESD 16 10,32%
weak pair + gutshot 6 3,87%
(bare) weak pair 31 20,00%


flushdraw + OESD + overcards 1 0,65%
flushdraw + OESD 1 0,65%
flushdraw + gutshot + overcards 1 0,65%

OESD + overcads 11 7,10%
OESD + 2 crd bc-fd 2 1,29%


nothing 17 10,97%

Total 155 100,00%

« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 02:26:35 PM by jiivee »

Eisflamme

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2013, 03:41:26 PM »
Hi jiivee,

thank you for the very elaborate description of your case!

Displayed Hand Strengths (Schema)

You are right, it is not very intuitive that board-pairs are included in the draw section. It makes sense, however, if a board is paired and you want to see, e.g., flushdraws. In this case, each flushdraw is a pair at the same time, so that flushdraws would be excluded.

I think that this has to do with personal preference more than anything else. The good news is: You can change the entire schema to what you would like it to display. When you click on the schema dropdown and select "Edit Schemas", you can copy the standard schema and change everything in a way that you like best. Afterwards, you can declare this newly created schema as default schema and the tab will use this one as default. That way, you can customize the table just the way you would like to use it.

Combination Sums

As for your example: Adding up combinations in the way you did this has the downside that combinations can overlap. If you would like to add them up removing the overlaps, you can just check all the different hand strengths. In the line "custom sum", you will get the correct result and can reuse it. You can also view it and see if anything is missing.

I am not sure if this solves your issue, as you have probably thought about that.

To elaborate further, which could help you to determine fold equity: The custom sum (as described two paragraphs above) contains the hands villain will continue with. Now, you can right-click on the "custom sum" label and choose "Create new Group for Player1". That way, a group (=range part) is created which contains those combinations. You can then enter the hand selection dialog, create another group and use the group remainder button to get the other hands.

Now, you can watch "Parent Range Percentage" for both groups and see how much portion of the group is part of the range. As group2 should contain the hands which villain will not continue with (= the hands he will fold), the parent range percentage for this group is the fold%. With the next update, you can also see "parent range percentage discounted", which shows this number while accounting for card removal effects because of the board (and villain's range).

Also, text output like shown in your text is planned, if that information is worthwhile for you.

Is this information helpful for you? If you have any further questions or need screenshots for specific steps, please let us know and we can provide that, as well.

Thank you very much for your great feedback and interest again and best regards!
Eisflamme

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2013, 05:07:03 PM »
Thanks, your reply was helpful. I was kind of lazy and hoping to have this feature built-in :P but now I've digged deeper and I think I've managed to construct hand categories which eliminate any overlapping.

I have some new feedback/question.

I create my own schema by first copying the standard schema and then deleting draws and combodraws groups from it. This leaves me with made hands group.

For my purposes I need to make several copies of made hands group. One will be for made hands with no draws whatsoever, one for made hands with flushdraw, one for made hands with OESD etc.

If I could make duplicates of made hands group (for example by right clicking and copying like I do for files and folders in Windows Explorer), I'd just need to assign one group to no draws, one to flushdraws etc. and this would be quite easy task.

However I can't find a function for copying a group. This means I have to go to edit schema > edit hand strength and create new groups and manually create the groups from the point zero by constructing every single line command after command. I haven't started to do it yet but I think It will get kinda frustrating... Am I missing here something or is copy function missing? I've tried the usual dragging and dropping tricks but for no results.

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 06:54:19 PM »
Here's two mistakes I've spotted.

If there's trips on the board, say 999, and a player has two unpaired cards in his hand, it shows in Three of a kind > using one holecard group althought it uses two holecards. I think there should be "made hand on board" option for Three of a kind too.

Another thing is that if you create hand group which includes two pairs but excludes "hands using two holecards for made hand", it doesn't exclude two pairs with pocket pair. I know "using two holecards" category is meant for two pairs which hit the board with two holecards. However language usage in this context should be accurate in style: if it says it excludes hands using two holecards, then it should exclude all hands using two holecars and there shouldn't be any guesswork needed.

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 11:02:59 PM »
Another thing I came across: It would be useful to have a minimize/maximize button which would show or hide all sub lines and sub sub lines and sub sub sub lines etc. in evalution tabs with a single click.

Eisflamme

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2013, 09:23:07 AM »
Hi,

you are right, there is currently no copy function for hand strength groups. So, doing it manually is the only way to accomplish what you describe at the moment. We have put the copy function on the to do list, though.

Quote
I think there should be "made hand on board" option for Three of a kind too.
Yeah, you are right, this is not really correct.

Quote
Another thing is that if you create hand group which includes two pairs but excludes "hands using two holecards for made hand", it doesn't exclude two pairs with pocket pair.
Well, I agree that this is not correct when regarding the language. However, as you point out correctly the "two holecards" category is reserved for another purpose. Excluding pp made hands would subsequently mean that "using two holecards" includes all the pocket pair hands and additionally the two unpaired card hit hands. I think, those categories should be exclusive and not overlapping because this might be confusing, too.

I agree that there should be no guesswork involved, but I would rather change the name of this category. It does not seem that easy to find a name, though (which is not too long to read). We have put this on the todo list, maybe we can come up with a better label.

Quote
It would be useful to have a minimize/maximize button which would show or hide all sub lines and sub sub lines and sub sub sub lines etc.
Yes, nice idea. Also put on the list. :)

Thank you very much for your elaborate feedback!
If you have further ideas or questions, we are looking forward to hearing them.
All the best,
Eisflamme

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2013, 08:48:00 PM »
Thanks for your answer again, it's nice to know you read these and are alert in developing the already great software :)

Here's one more small detail which I find illogical. In standard schema, let's insert a 100 % percent range for player one and a turn board T987 all spades. It shows that any two cards that doesn't connect the board in any way, like pocket 22, has a straight draw using the board but. However random hand that misses the board, say 42 of diamonds, doesn't have a flush draw using the board.

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2013, 11:02:18 AM »
There's something wrong with counting flush draws. Check attachment 1. I created schema "test" for only flush draws to illustrate my point. Total flush draw number 390 is same what Flopzilla gives so I suppose it's right, but for some reason in this 3 tone board nut flush draws and 2nd nut flush draws are missing and are included to other flush draws group (command line for it in attachment 2).

Another blunder is with straigh flush draws. Check attachment 3. Straight flush draws are created by adding hands which have both a flush draw and a straight draw. That doesn't produce straigh flush draws, it produces combodraws with flush draw and straigh draw.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2013, 07:36:21 PM by jiivee »

Eisflamme

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2013, 08:24:34 AM »
Hi,

good to hear that you like the software already despite the current flaws which you continously find. :)

no flushdraw for 42 on T987ssss: we will look into that.

your second result:
Yes, everything which has a J/T of spade is considered to be a straight flush draw. A T/J of spade on the turn would make it a straight flush, so it is a draw to a straight flush what this label means (or would you suggest otherwise?). In this special case, one could consider 9s as nut flush draw. However, this terminology would be confusing as well, so as any nut/2nd nut flushdraw is simultaneously a straight flush draw, it is displayed as such and therefore moved to the straight flush draw category.

Your second feedback is that hands like Jd2s are counted as straight flush draw, right? This is indeed not correct, we will look into this, as well.

Thanks again for your detailed feedback and best regards!
Eisflamme
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:24:40 AM by Eisflamme »

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2013, 02:10:06 PM »
Yes, everything which has a J/T of spade is considered to be a straight flush draw. A T/J of spade on the turn would make it a straight flush, so it is a draw to a straight flush what this label means (or would you suggest otherwise?). In this special case, one could consider 9s as nut flush draw. However, this terminology would be confusing as well, so as any nut/2nd nut flushdraw is simultaneously a straight flush draw, it is displayed as such and therefore moved to the straight flush draw category.

I understand this reasoning but it leads to some difficulties in practise.

When facing a 3 tone flop people often fold to resistance anything but flushes, nut flush draws and sets. If I'm using Poker Ranger to study, which hands villain will continue with and which not, the results are misleading. J♠ 4♦ has 1 out for straighflush and 8 outs to nutflush. 1-outer hand has no significant value but 8 (+1) outer is a strong drawing hand. When you check a distribution on a hand you've played with software like this, you usually take a quick glimpse to results and don't get so deeply involved to details like I'm doing here.  If hands are missing from nut flush draws group, you just make a (wrong) assumption that villain will fold those.

Another thing is that on board A♠ K♠ Q♠ hand J♠ 4♦ is moved away from nut flush draw category but is not moved away from flush draw category. So here PokerRanger doesn't mind a hand is simultaneously a straighflushdraw and a flushdraw.

Your second feedback is that hands like Jd2s are counted as straight flush draw, right? This is indeed not correct, we will look into this, as well.

Yes. According to Poker Ranger, on board A♠ K♠ Q♠ hand J♥ 3♠ has a straighflushdraw with gutshot (check attachment 1). This is because "straightflushdraws with gutshot" group is constructed by combining hands strengths gutshot AND flushdraw. As I explained in my previous message, this isn't valid way to separate straighflushdraws from other hands.

There's lots of hands which qualify this criteria but which aren't straighflushdraws, like J♥ 3♠. Another example is hand 7♣ 6♣ on flop A♣ 8♠ 5♣. It has an open ended straight draw AND it has a flushdraw, therefore Poker Ranger qualifies it as a straighflushdraw, which it actually isn't. On a flop A♠ 8♣ 5♣ it would have a straighflushdraw (+ flushdraw + OESD).

I don't think it's even possible to define straighflushdraws based on flushdraw and straightdraw parameters and other parameters Poker Ranger offers currently.

good to hear that you like the software already despite the current flaws which you continously find. :)

Well I don't think there's a bug-free software in existence. I need detailed information of distributions for my own purposes (I insert it to Excel and process further) and Poker Ranger is first software I've tried which is flexible enough to give me basicly everything I need.

Too often you don't get any response to your feedback or if you do it's a copy + paste from FAQ which you've already read. You're active approach is cool, if you implement necessary fixes in reasonable schedule it's even more cool :)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 02:13:48 PM by jiivee »

Eisflamme

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2013, 02:27:55 PM »
Hi again,

Quote
Another thing is that on board A♠ K♠ Q♠ hand J♠ 4♦ is moved away from nut flush draw category but is not moved away from flush draw category. So here PokerRanger doesn't mind a hand is simultaneously a straighflushdraw and a flushdraw.
Indeed. You are right.

Quote
I don't think it's even possible to define straighflushdraws based on flushdraw and straightdraw parameters and other parameters Poker Ranger offers currently.
In the past, there was a category for straightflushdraws, which was an isolated hand strength. We will reintroduce that. Do you think, there should be a difference between flushdraw + OESD and flushdraw + gutshot or can both be put into the same category "straight flush draw"?

Quote
You're active approach is cool, if you implement necessary fixes in reasonable schedule it's even more cool :)
Glad that you like it. :) We try our best to get as much and as high-quality feedback as possible and seldom have we been disappointed. We also try our best to fix everything as fast as possible.

Thanks again and have a nice day,
Eisflamme

jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2013, 03:15:57 PM »
In the past, there was a category for straightflushdraws, which was an isolated hand strength. We will reintroduce that. Do you think, there should be a difference between flushdraw + OESD and flushdraw + gutshot or can both be put into the same category "straight flush draw"?


I don't think dividing such a marginal hand group to two different categories in default view is necessary. If you mean should these groups exist in edit schema section, I think one principle for this kind of software should be to offer as detailed information as possible so having the most precise hand groups is good.

Actually it would be almost indifferent for real-life post flop situations if there wasn't straigh flush draw group at all. Straighflushdraw has always 9 outs to flush and additional 3-6 outs to straight so it's basicly all-in hand, whether 1-2 of those outs are to straighflush or not.

In my opinion ignoring straight flush draws and including them just to flush draws and straigh draws would be better than current situation where your relevant nut flush draws "disappear" to irrelevant straigh flush draws.

On a 3 tone flop it means worlds to know, what's the probability that your opponent has a nut flush draw. Now that information is missing from Poker Ranger and you can't get it out even if you create your own schema.

Thanks again and keep up good work ;)


jiivee

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Re: Counting combos
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2013, 07:05:30 PM »
Another thing I've noticed.

Two pair with pocket pair has subcatetories "With overpair to board pair", "middle pair" and "underpair". On a T♠ 4♠ 4♥ overpair category includes pocket pairs AA-JJ and 99-55.

It would be more informative to have overpairs to board cards instead of overpairs to board pairs. Then AA-JJ would be in that category, 99-55 in middle pair category and 33-22 in underpair category.